Advice, how to decide, general questions...

[irishgoaltender22]

As I have been a member of various other forums and know there are constant posts such as mine which get repetitive, I will give the short and sweet question for those that dont want to read it all and my detailed OS question after for those that do...

I am finally deciding to break into the smartphone world and while I am still considering larger Blackberry models (8700/8800) as well as the Samsung Blackjack II, for the most part I am going to go with a Treo.

The short and sweet, I want a phone that:

will withstand the daily grind
provides solid texting capabilities
offers simple navigation to key choice programs/apps
touch screen (a given with the Treos)
easy to use contact organization (name, phone, email, address, etc)
easy to use calendar functions
memos
friendly use of email and web-browsing
capable of viewing and modifying Word and Excel documents
the larger the keyboard the better
camera functionality is a plus
has a screen that wont fade with bright lights
has a good battery life (if that is even possible)
has the ability to be a decent phone on a stand alone basis

I'm PalmOS raised but can adapt, especially since it would appear the PalmOS is on its way out.

Which Treo would best suit my needs???

The nitty-gritty...

The OS...
I have always used a PalmOS in the PDAs I have carried throughout the years, but I mainly only have used the datebook and memo features. I have always had my phone with me and my addresses stored on my computer. Being on a tight college budget I never had the top of the line PDAs, just enough to keep me organized through school and work.

In the reviews and research I have done Palm typically wins every category by small margins, and it is often noted in summaries that the PalmOS is simply quicker and more fluid in operation than WM. Beyond that, my understanding of the difference between PalmOS and WM is something to the extent of:

PalmOS:
amazingly intuitive and easy to use
for the most part less steps to navigate the menus
better standard and 3rd party applications
runs smoother than WM
hasnt seen a real update in a while and probably wont

WM:
ability to multi-task
decent navigation
PC compatible without problem (home and office friendly)
will continue to be upgraded
has the tendency to crash and need a restart like a desktop would (typical windows issues ... this is my big problem)

I am pretty sure either would do what I would be asking (especially as an first time smartphone owner), but that doesnt mean it is any easier. I plan on using whatever phone I buy for at least 2-3 years before upgrading. I dont want to buy Palm and get comfortable and then have a hard time making the change when my next phone doesnt have it; however, I also dont want to spend the next 3 years pounding my head against the wall dealing with the same problems I have on my desktop, on my phone as well.

I thought about simply breaking into the game by picking up a Treo 650 which I have seen for as little as $150 (680s for $200), but the above stated concern is present.

So that my friends is my quandary in somewhat of a rather large nutshell. If anyone could offer advice I would greatly appreciate it. Likewise, if anyone has direct knowledge of Blackberries or the Blackjack II I would appreciate those comparisons as well.

[stevetaz]

Hi and welcome to ET:

You are seeking the perfect device and it just doesn't exist. We would all love a handheld that does everything you list, but at the current point in technology, you will have to give a little to get a little. That is, IMHO of course:
will withstand the daily grind -Can't say what this means as all people use devices differently. I think the Treos and BBs have proven track records for durability if you are speaking of the build quality.

provides solid texting capabilities -Again this is different for different people. Treos provide threaded SMS unlike others, but that is not something important to me. I have used the Treo 650 and was pleased and i am using a BB8830 and am pleased with the built-in AIM client. Others swear by BeeJive as it works for virtually all IM services, but I only IM with my daughter and the AIM client is perfect for me.

offers simple navigation to key choice programs/apps -Windows Mobile may be a problem for this. I have no personal experience, only what I have read. Palm and BB have been fine for me.

touch screen (a given with the Treos) -When I first switched to the BB platform I was missing this, but you know what? I don't even give it a thought now. With the trackball I have become more adept at one-handed operation and frankly, I think it is better. BTW...the Treo edge will change with the soon-to-be-released Thunder model BB.

easy to use contact organization (name, phone, email, address, etc) -For me no big difference as I use Outlook. I found no trouble looking someone up in the Treo and I find no trouble doing it on the BB.

easy to use calendar functions -I do believe Palm has a huge edge with their very polished Calandar. No contest here.

memos -Draw for me.
friendly use of email and web-browsing -NO ONE can touch the BB platform for superior push email in function and use. Web browsing the edge goes to Treo I think. That is changing as the new OS is being released and there is always OperaMini too. Of course nothing is like the iPhone for this.

capable of viewing and modifying Word and Excel documents -Again, give the edge today to Treo, but the new BB OS being introduced as we speak includes DocsToGo and I think soon this will be pretty much a draw. Currently viewing those on a BB is fine and built-in, but not editing and that is what the new OS gives.

the larger the keyboard the better -I liked the 650 keyboard a bit more that the 8830, but my daughter has a Curve and I am fine with that keyboard.

camera functionality is a plus -Not included on the 88XX series, but is on the Pearl and Curve. I also think it is included with the Bold and Thunder BBs about to be released. Not important to me.

has a screen that wont fade with bright lights -I have found the BB and Treo to be similar in performance, with the BB getting a slight edge because of their auto settings being able to increase the backlighting to over 100% in bright light. Probably more device specific though.

has a good battery life (if that is even possible) -My 8830 has kicked the Treo's butt with this one, hands down. I understand the new 800w is even more of a pig and not even lasting a full day of moderate use.

has the ability to be a decent phone on a stand alone basis -Not sure what you mean by that, but that never stopped me from answering before! I saw an immediate improvement in the signal strength and ability to hold onto calls when I switched to the BB from the Treo. No contest for me. I am in a notoriously bad reception area (North Shore of Long Island, NY---NIMBY Central). I used to have to go to one side of my house to make calls on the Sprint Treo. Now I can even make calls from the basement with the Sprint BB!!! No contest for me.

I don't know if this will help you, but it was a fun exercise for me. However, my fingers hurt and I have work to do.

I do urge you to visit a retailer that carries several brands and that you spend time playing with them to see what they do and how they do it. Most of all it has to be comfortable for you. It doesn't matter what others think....YMMV...

Let us know what you do.

SteveTaz

[benjie]

Steve has done an excellent job with his post. My BB experience is via my wife and her 2 BB's, so I have nothing to add there. I have had bunches of Treos and almost bunches of WM devices. I am currently using a Treo 800W.

The 800W gives you multitasking and does a good job with that. It gives you FREE Excel, Word, et cetera functionality that is frankly inferior to the applications provided by DataViz and Documents To Go.

The 800W does not give you any good email applications; the Palm world gives you ChatterEmail.

The Pam OS and Treo/Centro line gives you 1-handed operation the vast majority of the time. The Wworld and Treos (750, 800W) gives you 1-handed operation - not. In most instances I have to do more key presses to get the same results I did with the POS Treo/Centros.

WiFi - WM. Do I use it? No. Do I want to use it? No. Will I use it? No. GPS (800W) works, but is cell assisted. Does it work? Yes. Does it work well? For the most part, but you gotta have cell service for it to work properly.

Do you want compability with your "old" Palm OS applications? If you do, then Style Tap for WM is a necessity. $50. Does it work? Most of the time. Does it support the 5-way key? No. Do I like it? No. Do I use it? Yes. Do I want to use it? No.

The today screen on the Centro is fantastic with applications such as 2Day. The today screen on the WM is fantastic due to its cluttered appearance. I hate it. Hate it with a passion. Do I use it? Yes, no choice. I have the today screen on my 800W set to show date/time, email/SMS messages and appointments. To see what is below the appointments, you gotta scroll with the finger or stylus to see what is at the bottom. Do I do this? No. Will I do this? Only if I absolutely have to.

Am I a satisfied 800W user? Yes, I got what I paid for. I like it better than the other WM devices I have had. Do I like it better than the Centro? No, not at all. I did much more with the Centro than the 800W; however, the 800W gives me multi-tasking and that is the only reason I am sticking with the 800W over the Centro.

[stevetaz]

Thanks benjie.

Please, [puts on best Columbo voice]..."just one more thing". Well a couple:
- One item not mentioned at all is security. The BB platform is the most secure out there. If you are on a corporate network, make sure you speak with them about what is permitted on their networks as well as the devices allowed. I am guessing this is really a personal device by what you wrote though. Do keep security in mind as people have a tendency to keep more on these smartphones and if not password protected and encrypted files where warranted, you could have troubles you never thought of if it were to be lost or stolen. Treos can certainly be set up with security, but many find it a pain. Don't take shortcuts here.

-Stability. I can't speak to the WinMobile side or the newer Palm devices like Centro and the 755p, but I do know with my 650 that resetting, lock-ups and crashes were not terribly uncommon. I worked at keeping it clean and had it set up with an eye toward stopping the resets. I was successful, but still I got occasional resets and the like. No matter what, make sure you have frequent back-ups done and with the Palm devices, a card-based restore utility was a good idea.

I have been on BB for almost four months now and I have not had a single reset or crash.

Finally, the one thing that always drove me crazy with the Palm devices was the need to purchase add-ons to have certain functionality. Many that were available were things average users wouldn't look for or need and paying extra should not be a surprise, but others just seemed to me to be things that should have been included. What I have noticed with BB is that when they do OS updates, they seem to include add-ons that Palm would not. For example, they just released a media app, MediaSync that will enable BB users to sync their iPod playlists with the BB. The only restriction is it has to be a recent OS released in the past couple of years. Older devices can't use it, but most current ones like Curves, Pearls and 88XX series can, no charge.

When the new OS is released (no charge), the DocsToGo app will be included, also no extra charge. Even two year old devices (and older) can get these updates free. And there is an internal upgrade to the DTG Pro version also free. For those with cameras, the OS upgrade will include video recording and for older devices the upgrade will enable playing videos via YouTube, MySpace, etc, which wasn't present in the older OSes. Many of these enhancements should have already been built in, but at least they are offering and for no charge!

EDIT: One caution. BB was always a business-oriented device and they are trying to become a consumer alternative now. I think that you will find the Treo line to be much more customizable than BB even with their changes. It isn't for everyone. Part of that is the need to maintain the security as there are many top-secret organizations that still use BB for what it began as...a very secure email device. Without the security they would probably lose bunches of their core customers.

Again, you will find things important to you and that is how you have to evaluate any of these devices....what works for you!!!

Most of all, my company pays for my phone and service 100% so I like whatever they pay for!!!!!

SteveTaz

[irishgoaltender22]

First of all, WOW, I cannot thank you both enough for the input.

I have posted in a couple of forums and gotten nothing more than "try the phones at the store" but you two provided not only solid responses, but took the time to point out other things that I did not mention and should make note of.

Steve, I appreciate the breakdown and comparison of the BB to the Palm phones. It really helps to see some of the differences from a users standpoint and not a spec sheet.

Benji, thanks for the breakdown on the 880w and your thoughts on the application side of things.

QUESTION:
With all of the talk of resetting I guess I am little confused. I know a hard reset basically means all data on the phone is lost and the device is brought back to the "out of box" state... but a soft reset is? Steve you mentioned "with my 650 that resetting, lock-ups and crashes were not terribly uncommon" could you elaborate on this a little?

Have either of you used the Treo 680? How does it compare to the 650? BBs? WM devices?

I think part of my concern is that since this is my first smartphone I dont want to go out and buy the top of the line, whatever brand it may be, from a financial standpoint. I have not looked at the prices of the BB lines yet but I know the WM lines of the Palm side of things are running at least $100 more than the PalmOS lines. In the end, as much as it would be a pain to become accustom to a POS phone and then be forced to switch to a WM phone in a couple of years, I may have that decision made for me.

The BB lines have their massive following which is hard to ignore in the smartphone world. I think as it has been pointed out that they are mainly for business use. The 4 people I know with a BB all have them paid for by the company and use them for work insensly, which I would not be doing, and in the end this may be the deciding factor here as well... though we will see.

I do like how BB includes the various functions at no cost when upgrades are available, and I have heard nothing but great things about the email capabilities, which is expected since the brand is built on it.

In your opinions, do you think the new PalmOS (Nova or whatever they end up calling it) will come with the option to be uploaded onto phones like the 680?

Concerning texting, I would be mainly doing SMS as I am not a big IM fan.

Security is of somewhat importance. I will be using the phone as I use my PDA, names, addresses, phone numbers, passwords and log ins to things, email... I know Benji you mentioned that BBs are great with this, how are things on the Treo side? What did you mean when you said it can be a pain?

Again, thank you both very much.

[benjie]

QUESTION:
With all of the talk of resetting I guess I am little confused. I know a hard reset basically means all data on the phone is lost and the device is brought back to the "out of box" state... but a soft reset is? Steve you mentioned "with my 650 that resetting, lock-ups and crashes were not terribly uncommon" could you elaborate on this a little?

Ben: the 650 was a device that from the start had serious memory issues. Out of the box it is unstable and only after a bit of tweaking can it start looking stable - though it still will have problems. My suggestion - stay away from it.

The 680 - only played with it. I like the feel, that is all I can say.



Have either of you used the Treo 680? How does it compare to the 650? BBs? WM devices?

I think part of my concern is that since this is my first smartphone I dont want to go out and buy the top of the line, whatever brand it may be, from a financial standpoint. I have not looked at the prices of the BB lines yet but I know the WM lines of the Palm side of things are running at least $100 more than the PalmOS lines. In the end, as much as it would be a pain to become accustom to a POS phone and then be forced to switch to a WM phone in a couple of years, I may have that decision made for me.

Ben: getting use to the Palm OS is not a difficult task. It is easy to use and learn. Not an issue. The WM OS takes a bit more time.



The BB lines have their massive following which is hard to ignore in the smartphone world. I think as it has been pointed out that they are mainly for business use. The 4 people I know with a BB all have them paid for by the company and use them for work insensly, which I would not be doing, and in the end this may be the deciding factor here as well... though we will see.

I do like how BB includes the various functions at no cost when upgrades are available, and I have heard nothing but great things about the email capabilities, which is expected since the brand is built on it.


Ben: at this stage of the game, the BB does one thing well and that is email; however, in the Palm OS world using ChatterEmail, the BB mail system does not stand a chance. I was using a Centro running ChatterEmail and I consistently got emails before the BB users (10 now) and in addition to getting them before everyone else, I could read and edit the attachments. With the 800W now, that is a different story. I am not wanting to use a middle man for email and the default email application, Pocket Outlook, is just plain trash.



In your opinions, do you think the new PalmOS (Nova or whatever they end up calling it) will come with the option to be uploaded onto phones like the 680?


Ben: I have never had a problem with playing with new toys. However, at this stage of my life, I no longer have the time or interest in using a device running a new OS. The Palm OS excelled and the WM OS, well, it is good, stable, et cetera, but still not as easy to use as Palm and there are programs that I sorely miss from the Palm OS world.



Concerning texting, I would be mainly doing SMS as I am not a big IM fan.

Security is of somewhat importance. I will be using the phone as I use my PDA, names, addresses, phone numbers, passwords and log ins to things, email... I know Benji you mentioned that BBs are great with this, how are things on the Treo side? What did you mean when you said it can be a pain?


Ben: security. Wow, that is a big topic. Palm OS security in its basic form works ok, but it has limitations. I used TealLock 6 and frankly, nothing works as well or is as stable. I use it on both Centros and the 700p. I wish there were an equal with the WM OS, but there is not. I do need to take a bit of time in the close/distant future to visit this concern.

[irishgoaltender22]

Thanks for the breakdown on my questions. I made a couple of notes, specifically to the security apps.

WM is something I am thinking will end up waiting. I figure I can break into the game with PalmOS and let the new Nova get a couple upgrades under its belt before I decide which (Nova or WM) I will go with once I upgrade.

Thinking out loud...
Im wondering how much access I would have to tzones through tmobile with a treo... I have read that some get it to work and some dont (and tmobile staffers wont give a straight answer). Do you guys know of any tried and true methods to obtaining access to the internet without having to add a pricey data package to the plan?

[stevetaz]

Hi Again:

I have posted in a couple of forums and gotten nothing more than "try the phones at the store" but you two provided not only solid responses, but took the time to point out other things that I did not mention and should make note of.
-And that is why you better not go elsewhere, ever again!!!

Steve you mentioned "with my 650 that resetting, lock-ups and crashes were not terribly uncommon" could you elaborate on this a little?

Ben: the 650 was a device that from the start had serious memory issues. Out of the box it is unstable and only after a bit of tweaking can it start looking stable - though it still will have problems. My suggestion - stay away from it.
-No disagreement with benjie here. The 650 is not for the weak of heart!

Have either of you used the Treo 680?
-I never used it and can't comment. You should troll through the 680 forum here at ET to see if that helps you out.

I think part of my concern is that since this is my first smartphone I dont want to go out and buy the top of the line, whatever brand it may be, from a financial standpoint.
-You might want to reconsider this if at all possible. Making a decision like this based in large part on the up-front cost may leave you with a device that will drive you crazy and cause you to hate using it. That will not be very productive and since most carriers lock you in for two years to get the cheaper (subsidized) pricing on the hardware, you could wind up with a device you hate for two years.

In your opinions, do you think the new PalmOS (Nova or whatever they end up calling it) will come with the option to be uploaded onto phones like the 680?
-Again, as I understand it the new OS will be Linux based and I doubt very much if it will be able to run on hardware designed for Palm or WinMobile, but you never know. The other thing to keep in mind is that this will be a new OS and it would be foolish to think it will be perfect from the start. Based on Palm's track record I have to wonder when the first batch will actually be available. They predict Spring, but I don't think anyone would be surprised if that becomes early-mid Summer. However, this is all conjecture and speculation at this point.

Security is of somewhat importance. I will be using the phone as I use my PDA, names, addresses, phone numbers, passwords and log ins to things, email... I know Benji you mentioned that BBs are great with this, how are things on the Treo side? What did you mean when you said it can be a pain?

Ben: security. Wow, that is a big topic. Palm OS security in its basic form works ok, but it has limitations. I used TealLock 6 and frankly, nothing works as well or is as stable. I use it on both Centros and the 700p. I wish there were an equal with the WM OS, but there is not. I do need to take a bit of time in the close/distant future to visit this concern.
-I mentioned the security issue and this is another area I was pleasantly surprised with as the BB came loaded with an encrypted password-keeper program. Their email system is secured by way of the RIM servers that all email passes through. That can cause problems if their system goes down as you may have heard about earlier this Spring, but it is not a frequent occurrence. The BB handhelds have never been successfully hacked and many have tried. This is the reason the DoD, CIA, et al have chosen the BB platform.

Im wondering how much access I would have to tzones through tmobile with a treo... I have read that some get it to work and some dont (and tmobile staffers wont give a straight answer). Do you guys know of any tried and true methods to obtaining access to the internet without having to add a pricey data package to the plan?
-WiFi is the only hope for this, but with WiFi comes finicky operations and reliablity issues. I would definitely not call that tried and true, more like hit or miss. If you have a wireless router at home it should work, but don't leave home without it. And remember that public access WiFi is NOT SECURE. My daughter's TMobile Curve has WiFi and frankly, we don't really use it. That is because of the great plan I found for her. When I was shopping I found a huge swing in pricing for the BB devices that went from expensive to ridiculous. Verizon and AT&T were the worst and for 900 minutes, unlimited texting, Internet it would have been $100-$125 per month. I found a TMobile BB Minutes & Mail Plan that includes 1000 anytime minutes, unlimited texting, unlimited data and email with up to 10 email accounts for $59.99 a month. Her Curve wound up costing me $200 I think? Actually I think it was $150 after rebate.

To get the most out of these devices, Treo or BlackBerry, you really do need to have a data plan so you should be factoring that into your decision and if that will be a problem you might want to look at something other than a smartphone. You should also factor in the cost of insurance ($5-$6 per month) because things happen....Some homeowners policies do cover these and you should check it out with them.

Hope this is of help.....
SteveTaz

[plunker]

I don't know a lot about the blackberry but my brother in law has one and the device works very well.......but to use email or surf the net you have to get the blackberry add on plan that is fairly expensive. $30-$40 on top of your phone plan. (he is with sprint) It will not work with the sprint data plans but has to work with the blackberry add on. He played around with my 755p the other day and said he really missed being able to check scores on the internet.

[irishgoaltender22]

Yeah, I did some looking at BB models the other day and after looking at the features I have pretty much decided on the Treo 680.

I figure I can pick one up for under $200 and get used to having a smartphone for a couple years. After that Palm will have released the new OS and made many revisions to it and I will see how it compares to WM at that time.

I appreciate all the responses.